Episode 60: School Culture Over Programs: Robert Hinchliffe on Principal Leadership That Actually Works

What if the fastest way to better scores isn’t another program, but a stronger culture? We sit down with Las Vegas principal and author Robert Hinchliffe to unpack how trust, clear systems, and teacher autonomy transform schools into places kids and adults love. Robert’s journey from a high-school aide to AP to founding principal reveals what leadership really looks like behind the scenes: managing personalities, making uncomfortable decisions, and building structures that let great people do great work.

We dig into the daily realities leaders carry that most never see—budget puzzles, hallway dynamics, policy thresholds, and how “guardrails” like MTSS, PBIS, and attendance systems create freedom, not red tape. Robert explains why micromanagement fails, how to design for teacher strengths, and what happens when you put morale ahead of the latest initiative. Expect candid takes on cell phone expectations, the myth of one right instructional path, and the honest truth that principals must be okay with being disliked when they choose what’s best for the school.

Robert also shares the heart behind his books, More Than Just Teaching, More Than Just Support Staff, and More Than Just Principals; and the consistent lesson across small towns and big districts: relationships are the multiplier. When people feel seen and supported, they try more, risk more, and grow faster. If you’re an aspiring AP or principal, you’ll walk away with a practical blueprint: seek experiences, study leaders, manage personalities with care, and measure belonging alongside academics. Most of all, build a school you’d want your own kids to attend.

If this conversation sparks ideas, follow Robert’s work and grab More Than Just Principals. Then share the episode with a colleague who needs a lift, subscribe for future interviews, and leave a quick review to help more school leaders find the show.

Connect with Robert Hinchliffe:

Website: https://roberthinchliffe.com/

Tik Tok: @rhperspective

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Chapters

• 0:00 Meet Principal Robert Hinchliffe;
• 4:45 Early Spark And Path To Leadership;
• 10:00 From Classroom To Assistant Principal;
• 16:06 Learning On The Job And Gaps;
• 23:32 Managing People And Behind The Scenes Reality;
• 31:07 Culture Before Scores And Teacher Morale;
• 38:57 Trust, Guardrails, And Autonomy;
• 47:44 Systems, Non‑Negotiables, And Phones;
• 55:14 Writing Books And Finding A Mission;
• 1:02:59 Building A National Platform;
• 1:10:24 More Than Just Principals: Themes;

Transcript

Principal JL: 1:21

Today I've got someone on the show whose work I've been following for some time now. He is someone who lives and breathes school culture, leadership, and innovation. My guest is Robert Hinchliffe. He is a highly respected principal, author, and speaker based in Las Vegas, Nevada. For more than 19 years, he has served as an elementary administrator, leading schools to award-winning recognition and even being selected to open the Tyrone Thompson Elementary School in 2020. He's the author or co-author of several powerful books that many school leaders across the country use daily. How systems rock. Dream Themes. Start on the Sidewalk. More Than Just Teaching. More Than Just Support Staff. Stop Eating Our Own and his newest release More Than Just Principals, which hit number one on Amazon's new release list. Robert is passionate about creating what he calls the model of what public schools can and should be. And he continues to push against the status quo to give kids and families a school experience they love. Now let's get to the conversation with Robert Hinchliffe. Welcome back to another exciting episode of the Educational Leadership Podcast. Today I am so excited to have my friend from Las Vegas, Nevada, go Raiders. I know he's not a Raiders fan, but it's okay. He's a Seahawks fan. I wish him well coming up in the playoffs. But I like to bring on to the show Robert Hinchliffe. Welcome to the show.

Robert Hinchliffe: 3:08

Thank you. I'm not not a Raiders fan. I just like the Seahawks more.

Principal JL: 3:12

Well, you grew up in Washington. I had to throw that disclaimer out there. So there we go. So, Robert, you know, welcome to the show. And I'm going to get started with the same question I ask everybody on the show. What inspired you to become an educator?

Robert Hinchliffe: 3:29

When I was a sophomore in high school, thanks for having me too, but appreciate it. When I was a sophomore in high school, I got to be a teacher's aide. And I was placed and able to go help in a classroom for students with disabilities. And there was a young man in their name, Sean, who he had Down syndrome. And so they let me work with him. And I don't remember what it was that we're working on, but he got something right. And I just said, high five, Sean. And he gave me a high five. And the moment that he gave me a high five, I pretty much knew what I wanted to do. And it's just ever since then. And then I had a great principal, Mr. Butler, in high school. He was the coolest guy ever. And so I kind of wanted to be, I knew I wanted to be in education. And I, you know, I just kind of always was a leader in sports and everything. And I prefer to kind of lead. So principal and education just kind of came naturally.

Principal JL: 4:22

Awesome. So as a teacher, when you get an education, what did you teach?

Robert Hinchliffe: 4:27

So I graduated from the University of Idaho in 1999 and moved to Vegas to teach fourth grade. I taught for fourth uh fourth grade for six years. But again, I always knew I wanted to be an admin. So in year four, teaching was great. I loved it, but it just was like more and more and more. And I got selected into this special cohort for UNLV and for after year four, and then year five and year six, I went and got my master's in admin, and then year seven education, I was an AP. So when I was 28 years old, here I was as an AP. Thought I knew it all. Turns out I didn't know much. But but that's kind of how it went. I taught fourth grade, which I loved.

Principal JL: 5:09

All right. So as a fourth grade teacher, so when I was 28 years old, I was just breaking into education because I decided to take the 10-year route. You're already an AP at 28. But coming down to it in the time you're in the classroom, what experiences, what things helped you with forming or inspiring your leadership that you have today? Is there anything that kind of sticks out to like, I think that helped develop me into the lead into the leader I am today?

Robert Hinchliffe: 5:36

Well, I think you just, you know, as a teacher, well, your first year obviously you're just swimming. You're just trying to trying to stay afloat, figure it out, conquer the dip, learning what works. And then I think just the natural side of me that wants to wants to lead things or wants to help people, wants to make systems better. By year two, I was starting to like, look, okay, like I can do this, I can do that. I think my year two, I was like on what we call a social committee. I don't know if you have those in Nebraska, but essentially it's a committee that you know gets people together after school or does fun things during school. You know, just that was something I could help in year two. And then it just builds from there and builds from there to where maybe you're on a budget committee or or there was plenty of opportunities to grow in a leadership form. Year three, I had a student teacher, so that was really great because essentially, as a principal or an admin, you know, you're developing teachers all the time. Then again, I think it was just the willingness and the desire to be a leader and to get in there and help the school more, which really shaped where I went.

Principal JL: 6:45

Awesome. Well, you kind of talked about, you know, you're, you know, you kind of just knew you were going to be a principal, a leader at some point. You kind of had to just, you know, do some work in the classroom and have those experiences. But what really, I mean, you kind of touched on a little bit. It sounds like you did some sort of like preparation, or we call it an academy in some school districts where you kind of go through a program where they can grow their own leaders. So, with that all kind of going, what really you know set you up to become administrator and what was that transition like for you to go from teacher through the academy into administration?

Robert Hinchliffe: 7:28

Yeah, so I in Vegas it's it's probably different than a lot of a lot of areas. And back when I started, Vegas was just blowing up. I mean, people were moving here all the time. And so they're just building schools and adding admin on. So it was really kind of fortunate for me and just good timing and that they needed people to naturally grow. And I think that they really tried to see who could lead and move them along. I mean, I applied for this special cohort at UNLV where they only took 20, I think there was 20 of us from the district. You had to interview, which I've never had a problem with, and just probably probably just had a great interview, but got through that. And then you like you go to UNLV and you're with a cohort of people and you learn all the things, you know, you learn supervision, you learn theory, all this stuff. You know, it's basically like college today, where it's a lot of theory, very little practice. And then in Vegas, during my time, there used to be what was called leadership. That was the last semester, and that's much more formal. That's where CCSD, Clark County School District, the leaders there, they are principals, they are teaching you things you need. So I can very I can remember writing a um, you know, an evaluation for a teacher based upon a video, or you had to learn how to fill out an expulsion packet. You know, they were kind of getting you ready for that transition into being an assistant principal. And and I remember teaching my sixth year and fourth grade, and I just knew it was my last year. I've been very blessed to just kind of know what I always wanted to do. I mean, things just kind of opened up at the right time, but I I was 99% sure it was my last year as a teacher because they were hiring so many APs. And I remember in late July, we used to open up an email once a week and it had appointments on it. And my name was on there, and all of a sudden you're an AP. And the next week I'm going, and here I am helping lead a school. So it was it was kind of a whirlwind two years when you look back on it, but it was a really good uh system for preparing me in some ways for the job.

Principal JL: 9:37

So you talk about you know a lot of preparation work, a lot of learning theory, learning exposure, all the different probably ways the district works and operates to get you ready for those positions. So, was there anything that you wish they would have helped you prepare for a little bit better? Or was it like you didn't really know the job until you got into the job? What was your experience like when you kind of got into that assistant principal job?

Robert Hinchliffe: 10:05

You yeah, I mean, if there's I think you know, I think being an AP your first year is a lot like teaching your first year. You're you learn more your first year, your first few years than you did in college. I think looking back on it, I you know, I mean you're they're cramming a lot into two years, but you know, special ed changes all the time. There's always something new. And you know, my school that I was at didn't necessarily have this special education program. So I wasn't really real well versed in for us, it's called SLD or you know, a severe learning-disabled classroom. Didn't really have much knowledge of that. I think too, one thing I've really had to work on just over time is how I kind of supervise people and building relationships based upon who they are, not who I am, type of thing, you know, mixing those two together. I think a lot of it, you know, you can you can practice theory all you want to and and say, oh, this teaching method, or you know, follow Harry Wong's book, first hundred days. But in reality, until you get in there and get your hands dirty and you see what's going on in the day-to-day, I don't know that you can ever say you're ready or prepared for it. And it's just you know, just learning on the job, really.

Principal JL: 11:34

Yeah, I kind of had a similar experience. I mean, I had I actually went through what we call leadership academy for a couple of years at my last high school, which would have been Ralston High School. I got to work with Dr. Adler, really great superintendent, and got to learn like the importance of all the different things, but like until you're actually sitting in a seat and you're actually doing it, you're kind of like, you know, you kind of think you know how you would do things, but then you have to have that experience, and it takes you know, failures to get better and things like that. So, what kind of things have you learned as an AP that helped you as a principal? And then maybe you know, your experiences as a principal that's really shaped your leadership over the years. And do you have some stories or some examples of what helped shaped you?

Robert Hinchliffe: 12:26

Yeah, well, as an AP, I was AP in three different schools over seven years. So, and I actually started to book about this, but if when you're in a school for two years and you just get comfy, at the time, so in Vegas, I just got transferred to a new school, they can kind of do that. At the time, I'm like, whoa! But looking back now, I'm glad it happened because I got to go listen, I got to go learn from a completely different leadership style in a completely different elementary school, and really learn how to work with people and understand that when you go into a school, you have to find where you fit and how you can help. That's kind of my my my viewpoint on it. And just learning what how can I use my skill and ability to make the school better? I think unfortunately, well, I'll I'll just keep with that path. Learning that in the three elementary schools I was an AP at with three very different leaders helped shape to me. I believe as an AP or a future leader, the best thing you can do is watch people that you value and develop your own style based upon the strengths that they have. I, my mentor was Lisa Primus, and Lisa was a bulldog for kids, and then that's who she was, and we're gonna do what's right for kids, and it didn't matter. She would, it didn't matter. I was I was very close with her, didn't matter. If I did it wrong, you're gonna hear about it. That shaped me a little bit because there was times where I was like, you know, like you can massage it out a little bit here, like, or there's people that just don't need a kick in the rear, they just need to be like, hey, you can't do this. So I think just the things that I learned as an AP was how to manage people well. And probably a better statement is how to serve people better. You also learn the bad sides of the job. You learn that sometimes parents are gonna yell at you, or you know, kids are gonna do stupid things, they're kids, they're supposed to. You learn how to discipline employees if need be. You know, the dirty parts of the job, the behind the scenes. A lot of people, when I yank them out of the classroom to make a strategist, or you know, are they like Shauna, who was at Tyrone Thompson, she came from a classroom to be the AP. A lot of leaders don't understand all the behind the scenes that are going on and all the day-to-day. And they get up here and it takes about three seconds before their eyes are opened, and everything that they never knew was happening is happening. So I think just being an AP and having those three different situations opened my eyes to a whole bunch of scenarios, so that by the time I was selected to be a principal, I pretty much knew what I was getting into. And I was really confident that I could do the job. I never, I never once thought when I turned into when I was appointed, I can't do this. I always knew I could just find a way and find a way and find a way. But I think that's from me learning from so many people along the way.

Principal JL: 15:30

That's awesome. I know for myself, I I mean, I knew eventually, not really eventually, it was really my wife's grandpa that kind of said, you need to do this because of certain qualities I didn't see in myself at the time. But from that, I started watching the principles and the leadership that I was under. And so I started going, hmm, that's a good idea. Maybe that's something I can steal, or uh, not such a good idea. Maybe I won't do that. So just learning from other people and having those experiences is really, you know, can shape you and learning, you know, what to do and maybe what not to do at times. And so to keep you from making those same mistakes. So I appreciate you pointing that out. I think another thing, behind the scenes stuff that people don't understand you're doing, because even like today, I have to tell people, I will tell my staff, like, I hear you, I see you. Just know I am doing stuff. You may not be seeing me do it, but I will handle these situations, I will make sure the situation that you brought to me is taken care of. So don't think for one second because I don't get back to you, or you know, just know I heard you, I will handle the situation. Just I'm not gonna tell you what I'm doing because A, it's not none of your business, B, there's things I gotta keep to myself so I can handle things and work through some issues. So the behind the scenes thing you talked about was people just don't know that they sit in their classrooms and they don't know all the things that you're doing to keep the building running, the building safe. And you know, I think I gave you that text last night about looking both ways and getting hit by airplanes. Yeah, that happened to me today. A few airplanes hit me when I was looking for cars and did a host.

Robert Hinchliffe: 17:24

Yeah, the other the other day I did a TikTok, or you know, sometime, you know, I for every now and then I'll do one, you know, you're like want to be admin question mark. And I did one, you know, like you want to be an admin. Okay, well, you have your list, and by 7:30, you don't get to accomplish anything on your list. Or, you know, your job as an admin is to make people uncomfortable so they can grow. People don't like to be uncomfortable so they can grow. And then, you know, like on a certain day, this group of people might not like you, and this group of people might love you, and it might flip the next day. And you know, at our school, you know, we're getting ready for budget season, which I love. I love, I love trying to figure out next year. It's my one of my favorite parts of the job. But you know, I behind the scenes, I'm thinking, okay, if I have to move people, they have to be able to work with these people and cohabitate in this hallway and do these things. Because if you don't look at it that way, you're gonna have more problems. So there's all this, like, I don't want to say misdirection because that sounds negative, but you know, as a as a person who really tries to keep the people happy, even though that's the quickest way to fail, try and make them happy. You know, like you're trying to just make as much kumbaya as you can. And to do that, there's a whole bunch of stuff back here happening that they have no idea about. And for better or worse, it just has to be that way. Like you were saying, well, I can't tell you about this stuff, and that's hard for people to hear because we as educators, especially elementary people, we want to know what's going on. I can't tell you. There's just so much. I think that's part of the reason why I love the job. Yeah, I have my list every day, but I never know which way it's gonna go, and that brings novelty every day, and it's fun, it's fun to it's fun. For I use this analogy and you can edit it out if you want to, but some days you're kind of given a turd and you gotta polish it and make it smell good. Yeah, and you gotta convince other people it smells good, otherwise you kind of got problems, you know. It's just the job, and I love that part about it. I love just trying to make make Kumbaya uh this thing that's been given to me.

Principal JL: 20:22

Yeah, no, I mean you make a great point on that. I mean, in a way, there's things you can you can't let out, but at the same time, they don't see the processes behind you, they don't see you know the pro decision-making process. Now, as a principal, I try to collaborate as much as possible, but there's just certain things that I gotta make a decision on, and you're gonna have to be trust that I went through a process to get to that point. And the nice thing is I can explain to you why I'm doing what I'm doing, but you may not like it, but I'm not gonna tell you every little detail because a lot of it is something that you just need to worry about teaching the kids and doing those things. I'll worry about this other stuff that so you can do your job, and I think that's what people don't realize. And I do have some staff that understand that, I have some that's hard for, you know, it's just it's just the way that goes.

Robert Hinchliffe: 21:16

Yeah, there's I was telling telling us to have to. I mean, I'm pretty transparent for better or worse. Sometimes I'm way too honest, but um, you know, unfortunately in education, and I do this too with the district, is when a decision's made, so often everybody, when they hear it, they think, how does this affect me? They don't think, how is this better for the school? And trying to get people to shift to that mindset is really, really hard. Because in the end, you know, if it comes down to it, you're gonna choose yourself. Like it, you're I mean, that's just self-preservation. But you have to build up with your staff that they trust that whatever decision you make is for the betterment of them and the school. And that takes time. They have to see that you do that, they have to see that you listen and you take in all the information. You're never gonna make everybody happy, like I said, just quit trying. But you just have to be the leader and you have to make the decision, and and then you have to be out in front help making the change happen.

Principal JL: 22:13

Yeah, but I think if you do that in a way that, you know, they understand that you have their best interests at heart. And the one thing that I keep going back to in this role as a principal is my job is to make sure I support my teachers and make you grow or help you grow. And sometimes it's uncomfortable for you to grow. And even like today, I'm having a conversation with a teacher about something that they're uncomfortable doing, but I'm like, you have to do that because that's how you get better at being a leader in your classroom in this certain setting. And so they want me to come in and fix it. I'm like, no, you need to do XYZ. I will support you. Let me help guide you. Because once they learn to do that, then they have the capacity to do it the next time. And so just having that kind of conversation with staff members that you know you're trying to help, but you're also trying to teach them and give them build their capacity because if you build their capacity and support them and show them you got their back, then they're gonna take care of the kids. And ultimately, that's what you're trying to do is take care of the kids, but you can't take care of the kids if you don't take care of the teachers and adults in your building as well.

Robert Hinchliffe: 23:28

Yeah, I look at it as you know, when you're a teacher, you're trying to get your room to just run itself. Yeah, you have to facilitate, you know, you do your direct instruction, but in the end, you want if you're not there, and I say, Hey, how does this go? The kids can run themselves. I think our job as leaders in a way is to try to get the school to run itself as well. I think John Hattie, his his ROI on on principals, I think is 0.38, which basically means that a principal can make make a school worse and and you they can be gone and basically school will still run itself. I think in a weird sort of way, our job is to kind of build capacity so much that we're obsolete, and we can just go help people wherever, because then you have people that just do everything the way that they kind of should, and and you can just support and support. And support rather than put out the fires or this, that it's really hard to get to. You know, we both run big schools. You're never gonna have kind of just everything just smooth all the time. But the more that you can build capacity and the more kind of just systems and structures you can put in place, the more free you get in a way.

Principal JL: 24:36

Yeah, I know. Like the last three and a half years, that's what I've been building is streamlined the systems. This is broken. We kind of like work together to get those things fixed, and now we're in a place to where these things are going really, really well. Let's take the next step. And so now we're trying to elevate instructional strategies and academic rigor and those things. But before I could get there, we had to do some pieces within the culture, just in some systematic approaches we were doing and get those things where we need it so we can make the next jump. And I think that's important to know. I'm big on building your culture before worrying about test scores. Like, yeah, the test scores will come once the culture is set, but you know, you can't get the test scores you want and tell that culture is where you need to be, because you got to get people going in the right direction before that could happen. I'm a big believer in that, and I actually told the external review team that last week. I was like, you guys can break down and you know, show me all this data, but this is how I look at it, and this is why. And they're like, Oh, we never thought of it that way. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you don't because you're worried about coming from the state going, oh, I'm like, Well, that will get taken care of when this is done first.

Robert Hinchliffe: 25:50

One of my uh, so one of my co-authors, Brad Johnson, Dr. Brad Johnson, very, very popular in education, uh, all about relationships. And I think unfortunately, I mean, I I'm blessed to have met him, I'm blessed to be the same kind of leader. But when you're worried too much about test scores rather than morale, you're you're basically just gonna spin your wheels. And education sadly has gotten away from that. When I opened Thompson in 2020 during the pandemic, I didn't care. All I needed was people on campus doing the best they could online, building relationships. We weren't gonna really worry about any of that stuff. We're gonna get to know the kids and the families, and we're gonna kind of figure everybody out. If you sit there and you just hammer test score, test score, test score, you're forgetting the human side of it. And teachers, I mean, it's a teachers, education's weird in general, but teachers need to know they're valued. You're gonna get more out of them if you know their likes, their dislikes, their dog's name, what sports team they like. They want to know that you care about them as a human. It's like Richard Branson. I always talk about this. Richard Branson, if you take care of your employees, they'll take care of the clients. So, you know, that's that's just one of my things. Like the the second year that our school is open and people could come back on campus after the pandemic, the first thing I did was put massage chairs in the lounge. Just try to make it a lounge, like a place where people could just get away and relax. And I think that kind of set it like, hey, he just cares about us and wants us to be good. And then, you know, my whole mantra is what do you need? What do you need? What do you need? We'll find it, we'll figure it out. And if you can get people to have what they need to be the most successful in their way, you're right. The test scores will come after that. But unfortunately, educators lose sight of that. Another thing, Dr. Johnson, you know, I'm gonna be uh generalize here, but superintendents and school districts tend to get the next biggest thing, the next best program. Well, I gotta, you know, anybody listening, your best best next program is teacher morale or morale boosters. Stop with all the programs and start putting putting stuff into the people that are in the trenches, and you'll get a lot more, a lot more bang for your buck there.

Principal JL: 28:10

Yeah, invest in the people you got. Like if you're chasing programs, like you're saying, uh, just because it's the biggest shiny new penny or whatever you want to call it, doesn't mean it works either at the same time. Like there's a lot of things that have come out in education that people would chase the next big thing. But like you said, use the talents you have. How do you leverage the people in your building first? Because guess what? They're the ones that are gonna make that system work. If without them, you ain't gonna do it. It's not gonna happen.

Robert Hinchliffe: 28:42

I've never understood that. I think that's just my perspective. Maybe from playing sports, and let me give you an analogy. You know, we talk football a lot. What if I was the coach of the Chiefs? Let's just go with the Chiefs, and I said, Patrick, you are allowed to do a three-step drop, and that's it. One, two, three, throw the ball. That is the program, that is what we're doing, that is all we're doing. Or let's say, Patrick, you're gonna play wide receiver. You're not maximizing the talents, right? He's not made to be receiver. So let's take that into education. When you tell a teacher you do the program and only the program, and don't you bring any personality into it, that's not okay. You're taking all the fun and joy out of it. And what if they have this amazing ability to take an article about Taylor Swift and Travis Kelsey and get kids to read and enjoy reading using that? Why do we care? Again, I don't understand that philosophy because you're not using people to their talents and ability to maximize your output. It drives me crazy. Again, I get passionate, my hands get going. It drives me nuts. Like, ah, yeah, okay. Sorry.

Principal JL: 29:56

Yeah, sounds like you can go on forever on this one, buddy. Yeah, and I kind of look at it this way. I'm a former math teacher and I talk to kids about there's more than one way to solve these types of problems. You got to find the way that you what works best for you so you can get to the answer. Like you can get to this answer multiple ways, but you got to be sound in your process, you got to be sound in your your skills and the things you need to do because I go, the person over here may solve it different than you, and you may come at the right answer. So there's a lot of different pathways to get to the same result, and it's up to you on how to do that. It all takes your ability to think through it. How am I gonna get there? I'm using sound strategies to get there. Same thing in teaching. I tell teachers the the goal is to do the best we can on these state assessments. There's multiple ways you can guide the kids to get to those results, but it's up to you to figure out what strategies you're gonna use to help them get there. And so I think that's another, you know, thing I would like to add in on there is like if like there's multiple ways for a student to solve a math problem, there's multiple ways for teachers to help those kids learn. And that's where the differentiation comes in. That's where you know we understand that everybody's gonna think and do things differently, but I also want to give my teachers that flexibility and know, hey, I want you to be who you are, I want you to be the best teacher you can be, but understand learn from your failures, don't be afraid to try something different. If it fails, learn from it, move on. I don't care as long as you're trying and doing your best. That's all I care about. When you're not trying and doing your best, and I can give you that freedom because in the past I have known staff that haven't had that freedom, and they were so like scared to make a mistake. And that's one thing I was able to do with this building is to release that and go, like, I don't care if you fail, I'm trusting your professional judgment. The goal is to get these kids to learn, and I don't give a crap how you do it, just do it.

Robert Hinchliffe: 31:59

Yeah, you know, like when I uh hired people to open the new school, I made the assumption, even after years of admin, I made the assumption they came with a certain amount of talents and skills and abilities and knowledge. And what I found was they don't. Then as a leader, I have to figure out how am I gonna differentiate for the people in the building? One thing that educate, I mean, higher up educators, again, generalizing greatly, is they want teachers to differentiate, but then they're not willing to differentiate on their side, right? So we need to be able to do that as well. And there's a teacher on campus, she came from her last school, and she was a nervous wreck. I mean, if she had a kid outside the hallway that wasn't in a line, and I walked by, she was just an and I finally I'm like, I'm like, listen, I don't care. You're watching them. The only person that's gonna get you in trouble is me. Quit worrying about it. Just and you're like, just freeing her up. I'm big into themes. Themes is one of my big things for a school. When the first year opened, like our theme was the wild card based upon a book by Hope and Wade King. Teachers or educators are the wild card. You can get dealt a terrible hand, but you can turn that hand into a winner. You're the wild card. How you choose to play your hand is up to you. But I think too many times is we don't want them to be the wild card. We want to control the outcome. And what I found is the less control that I strive for, the better outcomes we tend to have. If someone messes up, great, we'll work together, we'll figure it out. But when you just let people kind of be free and know they're gonna do a great job and they're gonna teach the standards that they're supposed to, everything will come together. But it's so hard for people to let go of control. And I just, for some reason, I've just I had a friend once that told me, outside of school, I do not try anything. I'm not taking, I'm not going on a ride, I'm not doing anything. She says, in your personal life, you don't try anything, but in your professional life, you are not afraid of trying everything. And I thought that's that's a great compliment. We have to be willing to try things, like you said, as long as we're trying our best and trying to find ways to get kids to learn and love school. I don't know how anybody could have a problem with it if it's legal and it's moral and everything's okay.

Principal JL: 34:20

Like you threw the word legal in.

Robert Hinchliffe: 34:22

Yeah, yeah, no, you can't you can't use a cattle rod, you know, none of that.

Principal JL: 34:27

Yeah, there's there's there's some yeah, things we gotta keep, you know, we gotta keep some structured right. And I know it's yeah, and my thing is we talk about like we have guardrails in our school, I call those the systems. Yeah, so our our guardrails is the systems that we run, which if if it's our BIST process, if it's our MTSS, if it's our PBIS, if it's our attendance pro, you know, we have all these different systems that work together, they interlock and they all work together. My thing is, is as long as you're within those guardrails, you're fine. I don't care how you get to certain things, as long as you stay within certain parameters, and I think that's kind of what you're talking about. You're certain things we can and can't do, but as long as we stay in those parameters, we're good. And like you said, and I have noticed, you know, once I freed up my teachers, and like I said, it took a while for that to happen, but then they realized they weren't gonna get it, wasn't gonna happen the way it used to, so that's where once they realized that thing, you know, that's where the shift started coming, and that's and that's been really like I've had several teachers say, you know what? You know, it's been a while since someone trusted us to do our job. I'm like, Well, I'm not your babysitter, like you're an adult, like you should be able to do this. I go, if I have to manage you as an adult, that's a problem. Yeah, you can't do that, and I will tell you that's a problem.

Robert Hinchliffe: 35:57

And one of my statements, I one of my statements, and I I attribute this to myself. I don't try to give myself any credit too much, except for on this one, but I came up with this this quote and I use it. You will never find anyone giving you advice online about how to micromanage your people better. You won't. There's nobody out there telling you how to micromanage the employees that you have so that you can maximize output. It's an amazing thing. And if you find it, send it to me. We have to be willing to trust our people. And I think for some reason, in the end, in the end, everything comes down to control. Even though you and I are pretty loose, you know, we our our control, our guardrails are way out here. Some some principals they want ultimate control because heaven help us if something goes off the train tracks. And ultimately, we all kind of find our threshold for control there. And sadly, I think in in the schools and school districts and probably the country, you know, people want control far more than they should actually need it. And that kind of stifles everybody, especially in our in our system. Like, I just again, I trust the people, they they're educated. And if not, they can they can, like I said, they can literally teach things how they want to, what's best for them. Yeah, the data has to prove that what you're doing works, but it usually does. It's an amazing thing.

Principal JL: 37:22

Yes, I love that. I love that. I know a couple well, a couple of things I'm proud of. Once we're going, I was talking about the external review earlier, but with some of our perceptional data, the number one thing people know about our school is, and this is community, this is students, this is teachers, this is everybody. Number one thing is people know attendance at school is important because we work really, really hard on that. Like getting kids into school, because I was told when I first got here, we feel like a prison, and they feel that doesn't that's not no longer the case. No, number two, they say we feel safe. We said we feel like the things that you're doing, we understand how to respond in different situations because we feel like this is a safe place, and then the fill seeing value and heard was also another one that kind of popped up. So, like some of the things that in the last three and a half years we're working towards made me it popped up on the perceptional survey data results, and I was like, Oh, that's awesome. And then some of the challenges aren't that bad, really. There's it's more academic based, but it's like we'll get there because that's what we're working on right now, is the academic side. We're making sure our standards are aligned to the state, you know, the state standards, and we're teaching the actual standards, not what we want, right? As long as we do these things, our results are gonna are gonna be fine. I won't get too deep into that, but that won't happen until you set what that school building looks like, feels like, and people want to be there. And that's another thing. People want to be at work, people want to be at school, and we have systems in place to encourage it. So, you know, and go from there. So, yeah, this has kind of been a fun riff. We kind of just riffed on this one for a while.

Robert Hinchliffe: 39:59

You're 100% right. I think us as leaders have to work with the the leaders within the school. You have to make it a place they want to go, especially in the classroom. My goodness, as sad as it is, teachers are up against TikTok and Instagram and Snapchat. Kids don't have an attention span. If they don't want to be in your room, you're already against, you know, you're already going against the against the way you want it to be. You have to make it a place that kids want to be. Now, I I I confess all the time, I don't know much about middle and high school. I'm very, very elementary, which is usually a lot easier to get them to love school. You know, there's something about when you make it a place kids love. Like every morning, there are kids basically waiting to get in the doors at our school. And rarely, rarely, rarely do I ever hear that someone doesn't like school. I think that's a major, major goal you should have. If a student likes school, guess what else is gonna happen? The parents are going to support you, and it's an amazing correlation there. If the kid hates school, there's a pretty good chance the parents are gonna wonder what's going on. If you can get kids to like school, that's really one of the base pieces of the foundation that helps every set everything else forward.

Principal JL: 41:17

Yeah, no, exactly. I think for a middle school, I mean, I've worked in a middle high school and I've now I'm at a high school. It's the same thing as you want kids to feel good about being there. And it's not like where you been, why aren't you? You know, it's more like, hey, you know, we're glad you're here, but where are you supposed to be? Like, there's a certain approach that we have to get kids where they need to be and to encourage them to be in the right spots, and we're nice about it, but then you know, we have to sometimes, you know, flip the switch a little bit and say, hey, we've been nice now, you know, these are these are expectations, and you know the expectations. The thing is, is we and included our just a couple of years ago, we have a new because we knew the state of Nebraska was going to pass the the they call it a cell phone ban, but it's really not. It's basically you must have a cell phone policy. We had one in place before the legislation even passed because we knew it was coming, and so we have expectations on when you can access your phone and when you cannot. And it was rough for about the first month, but now you go up to a kid, when can you access it? They could tell you, yeah, this is when I can access it. This is when oh, and if they get their phone taken, they know exactly why. Well, I'm not supposed to access it at this time, and it's my fault because I shouldn't have got it out. Yeah.

Robert Hinchliffe: 42:37

Every every um, every school, every admin, every administrator, every principal, you have your thresholds, are your quote non-negotiables for your system or your school. And I think one of the things we're talking earlier about, you know, the kind of learning from everybody is you develop your own concept of where the thresholds are, what's important to you, what's important to your school. I personally, again, this is my perspective. There are some teachers out there that couldn't have their kids walk in a straight, quiet line if you did everything possible. It's just not gonna happen because they just want to talk to the kids and they want to just, you know, do the thing. And yeah, you can expect it, but you're gonna spend so much time policing that rather than something else. Everybody's got their thresholds and the things that are important to them. In middle and high school, I think cell phones are probably a very, very high threshold thing. Elementary, not so much, you know. But again, you got to find your non-negotiables and then and see where that lands. And but you also have to be willing to reflect upon them a little bit too. I think that's one of the things, key things I've learned is listen to your people. Anyone can come up here and say, hey, let's talk about this. In fact, speaking about cell phones, a behavior strategist, we have one, came up the other day and she goes, we got to talk about this cell phone thing. And I listened and she was she was making a good point. Why would I go against the people in the trenches if they can prove that we need to make a change? And I think as a leader, you have to be willing to listen and and be willing to at least reflect and think about it. Otherwise, then it comes back to you just trying to control things and people resent being controlled. So again, it's just all building, like you said, the culture or the climate that you know, we're happy here, we know we can go tell him things, we know where he's where he lies on certain things, and we know what's expected. If you can get those, then then things will definitely be in a positive direction.

Principal JL: 44:35

Yeah, it's called winning, right? It'll be winning if you got those things in in place, you know. And I think people, like you said, want to control things just too much. And I think you know, the more you try to control, the more people are gonna start resenting you because they you feel they feel like you're not trusting them. Yeah, and I basically am this way I trust you until you mess up.

Robert Hinchliffe: 44:57

You're you're me.

Principal JL: 44:58

I trust you. Once you mess up and I have to do more paperwork, that's where we're gonna have some issues.

Robert Hinchliffe: 45:04

You know, you we talked earlier. Yeah, I trust you till I can't, and for me, I give second, third, fourth, fifth chances because that's the whole growth mindset thing, right? You you we're human. I if I if you knew some of the things I didn't in my last 48 years, you'd you know, like you think about it, right? You have to you have to trust people.

Principal JL: 45:24

I want to kind of get into some of the books. Like you've got, I mean, you've been a part of a lot of books, and you know, you've written books, you've co-authored books, and you know, we'll just name a few, right? Like House System Rock, Dream Theme, Start on the Sidewalk, and more than just teaching. So just talk about that. We'll talk about your new one here in a little bit. No problem, no problem. Spoil it. But you know, with those type of books and the things you've done, like what inspired you to kind of get into writing and and seeing these things and you know, trying to help education in a whole with these books.

Robert Hinchliffe: 46:01

I'm all I've always enjoyed writing. And again, kind of the natural leadership part. I actually wrote a murder mystery many years ago, and just because I like to write. And I it was I read a lot of Stephen King. I don't know that might not be good, but and I thought, well, I can write one of those. So it was a challenge, and so I wrote one, and then I started, you know, kind of being in the principalship and starting to get a little bit more experience in it. You start to think, how can I change this for the better? You know, I think a leader, you're always trying to make an impact and change. I was sitting with my wife one day at Water Park here, and I said, I'm gonna write a book, I'm gonna write a book, I'm gonna try to make some changes. And about a week later, I hadn't had my first educational book, It's All About Perspective. And I just wrote my perspectives from an elementary principle point of view and how I try to do things. And I had so much fun in that, but uh then the pandemic hit and I and I was appointed to the new school. So it just kind of sat on the computer in year three. Uh Thompson, again, I'm very big on themes, uh dream themes. I had Dr. Brad Johnson come out to open the school year and talk about relationships because year three, all I cared about was to teach people building relationships with the kids and the community. Test scores will come. And so Brad came out and I just for some reason took a chance and I said, Hey, I wrote a book. Any chance you can help me figure out where to go with it? And he's the nicest guy. And he's just like, Oh, yeah, sure, I'll help you. When you get it all set, let me know. Great. Thank you very much. So then a couple months later, he messaged me and he goes, Do you want to co-author a book with me? I said, Hell yeah, I do. And so he was nice enough to let me co-author building dynamic teamwork in schools. And then I kind of just had the bug because you can make such an impact with books, especially Stephen King says, Write what you know. I know this stuff. And I know what I do works if you if you do it my way, not to say that's the right way. Take what I say and then try to fix it to help to uh fit your skill set. But I just got the bug. And right about that time, well, with Dr. Johnson, I kind of figured out I didn't really like publishers. It just kind of felt like well, Amazon was coming out with what's called KDP. And essentially, you can self-publish your books if you've got them, and it just hit at the right time. So then I just have these ideas, and I can just, for some reason, I'm just blessed to be able to formulate a thought and run with it. But the whole goal of every book is to make an impact in education for the better. I don't care about the royalties, I don't make a lot of money on it. It's more about making an impact nationwide or wherever and helping admin or helping schools move forward somehow. I was actually just thinking, you know, like, what's your purpose? Like, what's my purpose? And I thought, okay, my purpose is just gonna be to like do some kind of change nationwide and help people. And from there, it just kind of took off. And I just I just enjoy it. I enjoy the pro I hate editing, but I enjoy the process of making a story or a storyline come come to fruition to help educators somehow.

Principal JL: 49:17

Oh, that's awesome! I love it. That's kind of why this podcast exists, right? I'm not a writer, but I could talk, and then my wife tells me how much I like to talk, and so so here I am. I'm just talking, right? I talked to a lot of people and learned from other people, which is a lot of fun as well. And you know, I've thought about writing a book, but I don't know. I'm just like do the podcast. I think that's where I'm at.

Robert Hinchliffe: 49:40

Amazon is made to really anybody can writing a book is easy, selling is hard.

Principal JL: 49:46

So, so with this, you know, how has this opened up your network? Because you know, you're Las Vegas, Nevada, you know, you're at your elementary school, you get hooked up with Brad Johnson, and then you know, you're co-writing things, and you know, how did that open up your world with getting into like the national scene and working with other people?

Robert Hinchliffe: 50:07

When Brad was here, I basically told him, I'm like, You got the best job in the world. You get to fly around, meet people, inspire educators, and then you get to fly home. And I was like, ah, I gotta figure out how to do that. And it's like you just you have to start, like you were talking about the podcast, like you just gotta start and build it and build it and build it. And at times it's frustrating for sure. But then then you try to figure out well, where's my where's my niche? You know, what can I do? And very blessed here in Nevada, I got to present at the Nevada Association for School Administrators Conference, Dr. Jeff Geis, great guy, and kind of start to build my presentation there. And and then I again things just happen. It's really weird. A grandmother of two kids that went to Thompson was a learning strategist in Lake County, Illinois, and her grandkids loved our school, and her her kids loved our school, and she would see all the things on Instagram and TikTok, and so she kind of got someone to invite me to go to um north of Chicago and start to present. Well, man, now I got the bug. Like this is this is it, and uh, it's just built from there. But one of my books, I was walking out of a flag football game and I was walking with the teacher, and I told Sabrina, I said, Hey, I want to let you know I gave you a shout out on on X the other day because you went to your student's game and the mom posted the pictures of him seeing you, running to you, hugging you, and then a picture of you two together. And I just happened to say, and she was a first-year teacher, I said, you know, if you do it right, Sabrina, it's more than just teaching. And boom, the idea hit. And from there, I wrote more than just teaching, which is 25 teachers who talk about the most important relationship they had in their life with regards to education. So a person that was more than just a teacher to them, and then they talk about the student they had a great impact on. So they were more than just a teacher to that kid. And from there, it just took off, you know, it just was weird. And so then, like, and there's it's just again, things just happen, right? So I wrote that and a bunch of other books, but I I always tend to come back to that one because I think we can learn so much from other people who are in the trenches every day. And so then I wrote more than just support staff, and that's 10 support staff members from the Clark County area who go above and beyond. They are more than just an aide, they are an aide, a PTO mom, you know, they cover the buses, they do launch duty. They are more than just that thing. And when you think about it, there are so many support people out there that are more than you possibly know. There, right now, like in a I always come back to this example. Uh, at a hospital, there is someone who's cleaning the emergency room so that they can be ready for the next emergency. There's a janitor who is doing all these things at the hospital. There's paralegals. Everybody has a support structure, and we have to kind of pay homage to the people behind the scenes again. So then that led to more than just principals, which is which my latest one, right there, which is 15 principals from across the country and how they do more to help their community. And basically, I'm trying to get people to understand that you don't have to do more, you just have to be more, be more present, you know, do do things because it matters to the people. And and if you can learn from the people that have had success and kind of build, like we talked about, you learn from the people and you watch the people who've had the biggest uh influence in your life, then again, we can make an impact and kind of move the profession forward. That's a long story, but that's kind of how I got where I'm at.

Principal JL: 54:06

Yeah, no, I think that's great. And you know, you kind of stole some thunder in my last my next question, but you know, talking about more than just principles here. Uh just so people know, that released December of 2025, so just about a month ago from the time we're sitting here, and it quickly hit number one on Amazon. You know, so with that, you know, what was that like? That must have been exciting. Is that kind of one of those things where you already expecting it?

Robert Hinchliffe: 54:32

Yeah, I mean, I gotta be honest. Like I said, sometimes I'm too honest, but to be number one on Amazon does not equal number one on the New York Times bestseller list. Yeah, it's new releases are basically anything that came out in a month. If you sell like four or five in a day, you can hit number one pretty easily. So it's not like I'm making, you know, I'm selling like millions or anything. But you know, again, the ultimate goal is for me when I'm writing, if I just sell one, just one, and I can make an impact just a little bit here, right? So to see it hit number one, that was cool. I did that before with Dream Themes and House System Rocks. It's cool because you know you're making an impact, which is the goal. So it's a validation. Like you said, it comes back to what I feel like my purpose kind of is, which is to help people outside of Las Vegas. I'll help people in Vegas too, but you know, to make an impact nationwide or worldwide somehow, there's just like that's just kind of what it's all about, helping educators get better. So it's cool, no doubt about it. You know, if it could ever get to the New York Times bestseller list, you'll never see me again. I will be, I will be in a hundred acres in the woods somewhere. But but you know, just to know that it's making an impact is great. And and you know, my next plan sometime in my goal. I might be stealing your thunder. I don't know what your next question is, but now you're getting it. Now I'm working on more than just assistant principals. And that one's gonna be fun because all future leaders and other assistant principals can learn from the people in that book how they got to be as awesome as they are, and that's very, very powerful to see and learn from someone that you don't even know that's in Kentucky, and see that they do these things as well, or this is the path they took. And and I'm really excited about that one because that was me, or that was that was you back in the day, right? You're building up this credibility because you want to be an AP, and then boom, you're an AP. Now what? So again, I'm excited about that one. More than just APs is next in this whole series.

Principal JL: 56:39

Full disclosure, I was never an AP. Oh, well, I mean, I skipped it, but this is what I'll say. This is what I'll say. I was a 712 principal at a small rural school, so I did AP stuff, yeah. Okay, it wasn't like I was never an AP and I never dealt with discipline. I dealt with discipline, but I dealt with everything a head principal does as well as an assistant principal does in one setting in a 712 building, right? I think that's so I still have experiences that APs in a bigger district would have, but I think one could say that you're technically more than a just a principal because people think of principals, and you probably think of like the mean guy that has to just discipline.

Robert Hinchliffe: 57:26

That's not how it is. You're out there, you're doing raw-rah stuff, or you're out in front of the school in the morning. You know, for me, I'm I'm Buddy the Elf, and I'm the Grinch, and I'm this and I'm that. They think of you just sadly, I was at a podcast like a month ago, and Hollywood kind of depicts us as those people that are just, you know, like Joe Clark and lean on me, like just firm. But in reality, we're like the Joe Clark at the end. We care about people and we want to go above and beyond. So I would say that you are more than just a principal in those situations because you have to take on more and be more efficient, be more present, and and and do more than you just would do hypothetically. It's so easy, I think. Unfortunately, out there, a lot of principals sadly just sit in their office and wait for discipline to come their way or a parent, and and that's not what it should be. You should be more than that.

Principal JL: 58:19

So that's that's just what I believe. And so common coming out with you know, the more than just principal book, and you know, what are some common themes you want people to take away with that? You kind of maybe touched on a little bit, but what are some big takeaways you would like educational leaders, principles to take away from that book?

Robert Hinchliffe: 58:37

There's really two that I think you can take away pretty easily. One is no matter where you are, you can be successful. You know, so there's there's Carrie Cornwall's in here, she's from small town Kentucky, and she's in there in their blue ribbon school doing amazing things. And then you have people in Vegas like me. I'm in a great big school. So you you have the contrast. One one principal, Jeremy Brooks, he was at charter schools, you got high schools, elementary schools. Rachel Edoho- EKet is in there. You know, she's in Maryland, she's also the leader of Maryland uh association of principals, doing more that way. So again, no matter where you're at, you can do more and make a bigger impact. That's one thing. But ultimately, what all of them do is they all highly value relationships. I think that's just the thing that came through from everybody. They they all know as I do and you do, again, it comes back to taking care of the people that are in the trenches. And you can push them and you can make them uncomfortable, but if you don't take care of them or support them, they're just gonna leave. And uh each each one of the people in here know that it comes down to the people who are in the trenches doing the work, and they value those people greatly.

Principal JL: 59:48

Yeah, no, that's great because honestly, I think some people don't do that or they forget that, or like you say, they sit in their office and they just wait for things to happen instead of you know being the change, being you know, more than just what people think you are. I think that's really great.

Robert Hinchliffe: 1:00:05

And uh yeah, in Las Vegas is a little different probably for you, but in Las Vegas, I've made a career out of taking teachers from other schools that principals didn't take care of because we can transfer once a year. So they see us online or they see the C thing or word of mouth gets around. If they're not happy at their school, I mean I have I have tons of people that apply to come here just based upon the reputation of taking care of the people and and and making it a fun place they want to work. So yeah, I've made a career out of out of people not being more than for their staff.

Principal JL: 1:00:39

So you say Vegas has its own built-in transfer portal. They do, yeah.

Robert Hinchliffe: 1:00:44

It's not NIL, we don't pay them. We don't pay them, but uh, but yeah, Vegas' transfer system is a little different.

Principal JL: 1:00:50

Yeah, but the NIL would be the the take getting taken care of part. Well, you could go that route.

Robert Hinchliffe: 1:00:57

Yeah, you could go that route. It's more of a team game, you know, like oh, you have like I said the massage chairs are you know, we have all kinds of days and and fun and stuff, but but yeah, in in a way, I guess you could you could uh relate those two.

Principal JL: 1:01:10

There you go, just throwing in some sports references as we go. So yeah, Robert, there's a lot of principals or people that are aspiring to be principals, you know, that listen to the show. So what advice would you give somebody that's thinking about you know stepping into a principalship that could be an AP role, principal role, any type of role in educational leadership? What would you tell them?

Robert Hinchliffe: 1:01:34

I would say to go and ask for experiences or go talk to your principal and say, you know, how can I help? Or try to learn as much from someone that you that you respect. If you don't like your principal, then learn what they do that you don't like and make sure you don't do that. You know, there's plenty of non-examples out there as much as there's examples. You know, I think I think like you you make the point, like podcasts are free PD. And that's one of your taglines. There's so much great PD out there between you or Josh Tovar or whoever, you know, learn what's going on and learn from your situation. Watch online. I watch, I watch TikToks all the time, and these schools pop up and oh, that's a great idea. You learn from people. We're very blessed to live when we do because you can learn from people so easily. And I think that's one of the things that you have to, you have to just kind of ask yourself, okay, would I do that? How would I do that? Could I control that? Should I control that? Do we allow it? You just start to ask yourselves a lot of the questions and develop your leadership style. And then watch what's happening around you. Learn from people. And again, from that, get some experiences, as many experiences as you can, because you're gonna need them. You're gonna need them. And and and then just kind of watch people, learn, learn human behavior. Uh Rachel Edoho-Eket and Dr. Brad Johnson, relational intelligence. Learn how to understand people. I have a presentation called Managing Personalities. In reality, a servant leader manages personalities, I think. Because in our building, we have, you know, if you go with Enneagrams, you have nine different Enneagrams. And you have, you know, Enneagram eights that just want it straightforward and this is the way it is. And you got Enneagram twos who may shed tears if you tell them something bad. You have to learn how to manage personalities to get the most out of people. And so I would watch human behavior and kind of kind of think, well, if I tell that person the honest truth, how would they react to it? Or go from there. You know, it's not that you can't be honest, but the way that you deliver the news, I think, is very important in our profession.

Principal JL: 1:03:49

Yeah, I mean, being tactful and understanding the situation, those are really important things to remember because, like you say, like once you get to know your people, you'll know what buttons to push and what buttons not to push. And it's gonna take some trial and error, but then once you figure that out, you can help them manage through some of those different feelings that pop up when you have to deliver certain news to certain people.

Robert Hinchliffe: 1:04:15

Yeah, I was thinking too, which I you know talk about more than just assistant principals, you have to understand and be okay with not being liked. You have to be okay that when you walk in the teacher's lounge, everybody goes quiet. You have to be okay with getting the side eye. A friend of mine in the book, Jeff Granger, he makes the point that nobody gets talked about in a negative way more than the principal. And if you think about it, if you add it all up, at some point in time during the day, someone probably has some kind of issue. You have to be okay with being the bad guy. Kirby Smart, head coach of Georgia football. You know, you have to be okay with making decisions, having people hate you, and not being able to justify your side. Things like that. Watch leaders out there, watch people like Kirby Smart and learn from them. Doesn't mean you have to have that style at all, but watch what they go through and how they handle conflict.

Principal JL: 1:05:10

Yeah, I know. I think that's a great point there. And you know, I think the watching other people and you can learn what to do and what not to do in that situation. So great advice. I appreciate that, Robert. So, you know, a lot of times, you know, you kind of maybe touch on this a little bit, but we see a lot of negative things about our profession out there. I want to know what gets you excited about the future of education, what gives you hope?

Robert Hinchliffe: 1:05:37

I think, you know, like you you make a point, like, sorry, I gotta do this.

Principal JL: 1:05:42

Go ahead.

Robert Hinchliffe: 1:05:43

There is so much negative out there, and so I wrote a book with Sean Aquinaville, who's the assistant principal. It drives us crazy. There's so much negative out there about the greatest profession that we all chose to do. There's nothing better than watching a kindergartner run to you all excited and saying 6'7, 6'7, and they have no idea what it means. I mean, kids are awesome. Awesome. We gotta stop eating our own. We gotta stop posting all this negative stuff about our profession. When I get excited, you know, I only got four years left. I get excited personally when I start to hear stories. So when I go present and inspire people and talk about more than just educators, there's a part in my presentation where they fill out a QR code and go to Facebook and they give a shout out to the person that was more than just an educator to them and tag them on it, or they text them. I think what gets me excited is seeing people value those that got them to where they're at and knowing that that ripple effect is going to keep going. I am my ripple effect is is actually at my school, there's two teachers that were in elementary school when I was their assistant principal. My ripple effect has gone to them, and then they're teaching the future teachers and on down the line. So I think about it, I get I get very proud. I don't use that word a lot, which is weird, but I get very proud of the fact that teaching and education is generational, and I don't see how it can't continue in some positive way. It's always going to travel, there's always gonna be great teachers out there somewhere or great principals. And I get excited when that actually continues and I can see it happen, and people feel valued for what they do.

Principal JL: 1:07:28

I think that's just an amazing feeling. Awesome. Well, I appreciate that insight, and you know that that gets me some hope because I think the thing that we got to do, and that's part of why this podcast exists, is hey, let's talk about the greatest profession. Like Josh Tavar talks about this is the greatest profession out there, and people don't realize it because all the crap that they see that's not really necessarily true everywhere you go, right? Stop eating your own, right?

Robert Hinchliffe: 1:07:56

Stop eating your own. It says right there, it says, which side are you on? You know, like in my it's a fascinating because I know you follow me on TikTok, and I'll ask a question, you know, in my tagline in the end, it's all about perspective. Probably the truest words ever ever said, but you know, I will post something and man, teachers will let me have it sometimes. And I just think, why? Why do you hate your job so much? If you hate it so much, why do you do it?

Principal JL: 1:08:23

That's exactly where I'm at. Like, I I it's why I'm like going, well, if you don't like it, leave. You know, there's people out there that love the job and will do the job. And the thing is, is that that that gets to me too, to where if this job makes you miserable, then don't be in the profession because all you're doing is making everybody around you miserable, and it's not helping. So maybe there's something better you can go do in that situation.

Robert Hinchliffe: 1:08:49

My mentor, Lisa Freeman's, like I said, a bulldog for kids, and uh, she did something I've never done. She well, she would do it more seriously. I I did it in a staff meeting, just kind of as a as a uh inspirational thing. But she basically would give everybody what's called the three R's. You can resign, you can rely. Locate or you can retire. I've adapted that to well, you can reinvent yourself, but we also need to rejoice because there's so many great things about what we do. It's just your ripple effect knows no bounds. Your legacy goes on forever. And what you teach these kids, they teach their kids, and they those kids, I mean, it just goes on. It's just a wonderful profession that we need to prop up. It's hard, it's hard, it's hard, it's hard. There's tough kids, there's mean parents, there's admin you probably hate. But if you just put forth the effort and do everything you can, your ripple effect never stops.

Principal JL: 1:09:48

Yeah, I love that. I love that analogy. That's so true. And really, that that is something that you know people will, you know, need to understand. That is a very powerful, you know, visual that you just gave us there. You know, this has been a lot of fun. You know, we've kind of talked a lot about different things there in this episode. So if people wanted to connect with you, Rob, or how could they do that?

Robert Hinchliffe: 1:10:14

Yeah, they can go to www.roberthenchlift.com, or if you look up Tyrone Thompson Elementary School in Vegas, you can get to me pretty easily. Again, my my goal is impact. So however I can help, whether you need me to provide some inspiration to come to your school, or you just need like, hey, what do you think about this? Or help me with the theme for my school, whatever need, like again, www.roberhenschlift.com, or just find me on Instagram, Twitter, all the things.

Principal JL: 1:10:42

TikTok.

Robert Hinchliffe: 1:10:43

Yes, TikTok. Yeah. I love when you could you comment, you know. I don't know if you saw it today's, it was all about legacy. You know, do you care about your legacy in education? And uh it's I haven't got to read them yet, but it's gonna be fascinating to see who cares and who doesn't. And if you don't care, why are you doing it?

Principal JL: 1:11:00

Yeah, no, I appreciate that for sure. And that's kind of how we hooked up, right? TikTok. I saw you on TikTok and been following you ever since and kind of you know built a relationship through that process. So, you know, Robert, I all the things that you talked about, like just getting connected. I'll put that down in the show notes so it makes it easy for people to connect with you, you know, from the show, whatever platform they're on, because it's on every single podcast platform you can think of uh this show is so that's the the best part. So, Robert, before we go, what anything you'd like to say to the educational leaders out there?

Robert Hinchliffe: 1:11:37

You know, like again, what you do matters. You have to lead from the front. And I and I know it's not easy, I know there's bad decisions and there's tough decisions and and things, but uh I think again it comes back to you know, what kind of legacy do you want to leave? Do you want to have an impact on your school if you're in a smaller town, your community out here in Vegas, like we have our community where our school is located, but man, let's just make some impact, let's do some good things, let's try some new stuff, let's have some fun because kids are worth it, they're worth it. You wouldn't want your kids to go to school, you hate. So make it a school where your kids could come. It's the whole my kids standard. I get passionate about this. Like, if you wouldn't want your kids there, you gotta change that or do something. Like, let's let's have some fun and let's make this profession something everybody respects and values.

Principal JL: 1:12:24

Awesome. I appreciate that. And that's that's where we're gonna leave it today. We're gonna drop the mic, we're gonna walk away. Robert, it's been a joy to have you on the show today. Thank you for being here.

Robert Hinchliffe: 1:12:34

Thank you, man. I appreciate it. Always good to talk to you.

Principal JL: 1:12:37

What a great conversation with Robert Hinchliffe. His passion for creating joyful, high-performing schools is contagious, and his commitment to fighting the status quo reminds us that leadership isn't about maintaining what exists, it's about building what's possible. Now, if Robert's message resonates with you, be sure to follow his work. Check out his books, especially more than just principles. And share this episode with a colleague who needs a little inspiration today. And always remember to be curious and one percent better.